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Nate Jenkins: Training October 26 to November 1 November 1

Filed under Athlete Blogs, Nate Jenkins by Nate | 65 comments

65 comments

1. The Bankster Nov 2

   Nate - how steep should hills be for hill sprints? Like could you give a minimum gradient or maybe a picture of a hill you use of something? I know steep but doesn’t at some point it become a bank and not a hill?

2. Canova follower Nov 2

   Hey Nate. How do you go about figuring out which efforts will require a day of rest and which you can come back and put in a similar effort the next day like you seem to be doing right now?

3. natty Nov 2

   Now that is an impressive weeks training!!!Its about time things start to go your way. That saturday fartlek is probably the most impressive session in a vey long time, absolute killer. Another year like this and we will have 7 americans top 10 at nyc.
   ive been getting back into workouts of late having had a bit of a break from them just running mileage(110 ish), did an 8mile tempo this week in 43.01, so 5.22 pace, now this felt fine aerobically (20 mile pace ish) but mechanically it felt awful,so i went to the track and ran 6*300 full recovery and was killing myself to break 50, i was most upset! it seems im a little unbalanced in terms of speed or muscular strength, what would you reccomend?

4. ChrisM Nov 2

   Great training week Nate! Things are finally coming around, do you have any races planned soon?

5. Nate Nov 2

   The Bankster- Pictures and video of hills never do them justice. You see someone doing hill reps on video and you think they are barely climbing at all. The answer depends on what event you are getting ready for, the longer the race the steeper you should make the hill. Essentially you want to going about race pace or just a bit slower up the hill, but in a full out sprint. That isn’t a requirement just a general guideline. So for 800m runners a very shallow hill of 2 or 3%, up to marathoners should be doing the steepest hill then can, just a wall, 30 or 40% grade or steeper if you can find it. In between, well you get the idea.

   Canova Follower- well that mostly depends on what part of the cycle it is in. Also it should be noted the only hard sessions on this schedule are Saturday’s fartlek and Sunday’s hill session and to be honest only doing 4 hill reps and with 3 min rest on the fartleks they are not killers either. So I’m just going medium a lot. How I decided on this? I didn’t it is a standard preseason schedule canova uses with some small variations for athletes from 800m to 10,000m. It is a general strength cycle. I’m just following it. At this point I have trained long enough hard enough that I can do pretty much any legit schedule as long as it is at the right efforts. IE I can’t follow Ritz’s schedule leading up to the World half champs because I can’t do 10 miles in 45mins in a workout.
   Natty- thanks. Funny thing was the fartlek really wasn’t that hard this week, I felt like shit to start and the hard efforts were good but to be honest if I didn’t have to go to the bathroom I wouldn’t have stopped at 48mins even though that was what I was scheduled for I would have kept pushing on. Anyway I think you, like a lot of people including myself at times, did yourself a diservice by doing all that volume and not doing enough strides and form drills. A big volume will start to make you strong (need threshold to finish the job and make you strong at speed) but you need to touch on speed a lot. So my big thing would be do two sets, or more of strides each week, and a set of short hills. If your still doing more base type stuff. IE a lot of tempo and not much in terms of aerobic workouts. Which I would highly recomend for the next 6 weeks or so, I’ll explain why in a second, then you could do 1 set of standard strides, 1 set of diagonals and one set of short hills that get a bit longer 200 to 300m.
   Why should you wait for more anaerobic work? Well your fitness is ready for speed work, but you didn’t build your mechanical engine at the same time as your aerobic one so your form, if it is already feeling awkward going as slow as an 8 mile tempo, is going to be real bad and inefficient at any race type speed and really fall apart as you get tired. Two major problems with this. First you won’t run nearly as fast as you should. Second you can get hurt, my hamstring issue was almost certainly caused by this mistake. If you build a massive engine but don’t have the muscular skeletal fitness to match your body is forced to cheat and it causes issues. On top of that all of us first world kids have very week muscular skeletal systems because you know we sat around and watched tv and had bikes and were generally not doing hard labor when we were very little kids. Your fit, take the next 6 weeks, keep your miles up, do a set of strides, a 10min building to 15min set of diagonals, a set of short hills- not super steep even if your getting ready for the marathon -start with 15 seconds build to 60 seconds buy adding 5 to 10 seconds a week. Do at least one tempo/threshold run during the week, Don’t go hard in these, focus on good form and feeling strong on the inside edge of hard. Two reasons, you don’t want your form falling apart, 2nd that is how you train your threshold and with a solid base like you have if you do that you’ll find yourself running your 8 mile tempo in a much faster time but with the same or less effort. Lastly I want you do do a long hill rep session each week, or at least every other week. Now it doesn’t have to crazy steep or crazy long. But 2mins plus would be good, 4 mins would be better. But don’t hammer these again focus on good strong form and staying just inside of hard. Quick jogs back down. you want about 15mins worth of reps,ie 5×3mins, 4×4mins etc.., give or take.
   If you do this for the next 4 to 6 weeks you’ll be a machine. I’d guess you’ll be running that 8 mile tempo down around 5:10 pace or better and really quite fit. Then it will be time for you to start a cycle for getting ready to race. If you goal is a marathon then you’ll want 4 to 6 weeks focused on longer tempo’s and keeping that 8 mile session going, but doing some more quicker stuff, 1k to 3k repeats, then a 6 week specific phase, with you guessed it a ton of workouts at goal pace. If this is your goal then I think you should be able to run 2:14/2:15.
   If you looking to shorter races then after this 6 week cycle you can get right to specific work. Its tougher to give you time ranges just because a lot has to do with top end speed.

   Chris M- Not much, I’ll be doing a couple of local turkey trot 5 miles, the slattery’s in fitchburg on Sunday November 22 and then the Feaster 5 mile here in Andover on Turkey day itself. The feaster course starts with a very tough first mile and I haven’t raced either course but looking at what people have run in the past and my current fitness and how I am coming around I would really like to be under 24mins in both races. After those races I’m going to start a cycle of indoor races. I want to do a half marathon or two this winter and I need to make my decisions about when I’ll be ready for one- based on hamstring progression- in the next couple of weeks so I can try to get added to the pro field. I’m tempted to go to white rock as early as mid December, though I doubt I’ll do that. I’d really like to do Houston or 3M in late january. Houston fits my track race schedule better but 3M is faster and a week later. But I have run poorly at both those races in the past and I don’t want to try to get added to the field unless I’m very sure I’ll be 100% ready to rip one.
   nate

6. joetherando Nov 2

   nate. this is how we do it sir. im proud of you getting back on the horse. i won my conference!
   love,
   joe “Nate Jenkins’ # 1 fan” the rando

7. Nate Nov 2

   Joetherando- Congrats on the win!
   nate

8. natty Nov 2

   if i ran 2.15 i would probably do cartwheels naked around my street, hell i would do that if i ran 2.20, as my pr for a half marathon is 67.50 and marathon 2.22.im doin paris next april but would like to beat my 32min 10k pr in the mean time!!!yeah ive never done strides in my life, and hadnt been on the track since i was 15!!!now mid 20’s so dont know what i expected really.thankyou very much for the detailed reply. Im gonna try this then:
   Mon 10*100m strides full recovery
   Tue
   Wed 2-4 minute hills (15 mins worth)
   Thu 10-15 minute diagonals
   Fri
   Sat Tempo 12 miles 5.40
   Sun 10*200m hills
   Thanks once again, that sure looks like alot of strides but i suppose thats what its gonna take to get some pop.

9. Dave H Nov 2

   Nate, that was a very impressive week of training, and with the race last sunday a lot of hard efforts in 8 days! I’m afraid I will have to take all the credit and say it was the box of fresh veggies!

10. Nate Nov 2

    Natty- I hear what your saying but the fall before I ran 2:15 in February of ‘06 I set my a half marathon PR of 67:30 or so. It is amazing how quickly it can come with the right base and the right threshold work. The strides will give you a bit more pop but the real payoff will be in improved form and power at all paces making every pace easier to run.
    with the saturday 12 mile tempo just run the effort- just a bit off of hard. I think if you do that with your base built back up under you now you will find your self running a bit quicker each week. Really don’t look at the watch much just keep that effort right in that tough but not quite hard range. 5:40 is probably a great starting point for that, really just focus on keeping that effort and running as easily at a pace as you can.

    Dave H- haha- I really can’t imagine there was any other possible cause, they were damn good!
    nate

11. Baby Wolf Man Nov 2

    Big Nate! Your straight up killin’ it. So I have a question of the upmost importance for you… when did you start getting the savage chest hair? Im 20 and mine is at the point that it’s luscious enough that I just want a full bore beast chest of hair. Am I too late to get the bear chest or am I on my way to awesomeness? 1:02 in the half man, 1:02! I’m a believer.

12. natty Nov 2

    without wanting to spam your page ill keep you updated on how it goes, and ask your advice occasionally if thats okay. and id like to say if im even remotely close to 2.15. like within 5 minutes i will personally buy you a garmin so you never have to wheel out a course again and run endless loops!!!thats a promise.

13. Canova follower Nov 2

    With the half marathons on the horizon, are you gonna get back to some special days? You probably haven’t been able to do those for a while now hey?

14. Nate Nov 2

    Baby Wolf Man- I don’t think your too late to get full bore wolf man chest hair. But mine hasn’t got much fuller since i was 17 or 18, though the back hair, unfortunetly, has. But most people I know keep getting thicker into at least there mid 20’s. I really would like to run 1:02 this winter.
    natty- ok, if you want i’ll send you an outline of workouts i’d recommend, just email me and give me the specifics, I could use a garmin- my email is nateruns@hotmail.com
    Canova follower- I am going to get back to them but probably not before I do the next half. I have some on the schedule for February but I’d like to do a Jan. half. It has been a while, after the trials I was able to do a half marathon one, barely without too much trouble. But since they haven’t gone well. I aborted the last one, pre worlds. I couldn’t do one right now but hopefully in a couple months.
    nate

15. Paul Nov 2

    Nate; Patrick Tarpy finished 21st at nyc. I believe this was his first marathon (could be wrong). He came in at 2:20:43. Looking at 40k to finish he may have come in hurt. Hope he is well. Obviously a talented runner. Could he take it to the next level with proper training?

16. pscrq79 Nov 2

    Nate,

    Saw the Moulton brothers at the Manchester Marathon yesterday. Being that they are local guys have you ever trained or thought about training with either or both of them? Didnt you guys finish 1,2,3 in the Austin Marathon a few yrs ago? Keep up the great training!

17. Nate Nov 3

    Paul- I’m a huge fan of Pat’s and I do hope isn’t injured. I honestly believe that with more specific work, which americans pay just the tiniest bit of lip service to that basically everyone could run within 5% of there half marathon pace in the marathon. Now for Pat that would put him at 2:13 low. Now you figure NY is a tough course so more like 2:15 or so. I think that given his times on the track and that he really seems to run extremely well when he gets off the track and onto the roads that he would improve fast if he focused on the roads and be running sub 1:03 fairly quickly. That would with a non-american marathon training cycle put him in the 2:12 or better range. But I believe he got a very good job and that he wasn’t planning much after NYC. He wanted to run a marathon while he was fit and then see after that how training around the new job went.

    pscrq79- We finished 3 in a row at Austin in ‘06 but we were 6th-Casey 2:15:23, 7th-me 2:15:28, 8th-Pat-2:15:36. we were the 2nd, 3rd and 4th americans that day as well. At the time I liked the idea of training together but Pat was still down in Providence and Casey and me were very much training differently. I had just realized what the Canova stuff could do for me and he was really just clicking it off old school hammering out a ton of miles and races and just letting it happen. We did some runs together along the way. After the Olympic trials me and Casey trained together for a bit, but it didn’t work out. Casey was in a stretch of low motivation and not in top form- coming off a mid 2:20’s at the trials. I was in some of the best shape of my life and just killing workouts. I should have held back and done workouts with him we could both complete and done other stuff on the days we didn’t run together but I was so excited to have someone to hammer with. Anyway it didn’t take long before he got frustrated and we started running together less and less.
    Now I don’t know exactly how much each of them are focused on the running. They both work real hard by nature and are always in pretty good shape but it seems they don’t have a real edge, but with life and work and jobs that happens. I wish things had worked out differently. I remember when we all ran so well thinking how awesome it would be if we could have 3 sort of average guys out of the northeast running in the sub 2:15 range, sort of a start back at the early 80’s. Plus who knows if we are all running well then others are more likely to come along. But it hasn’t come together. They both have the ability, I’d love to see them catch a couple of breaks and come back around and Pop another one. Though the one thing I worry about is when we ran 2:15 I remember this feeling of ‘my God I just ran 2:15, I must be fit enough to train for 2:12′ they both seemed to feel more like ‘wow that was awesome, I hope we can do it again’ I could be wrong about that they both are a lot more humble then me so they play things tighter to the vest.
    they looked real good and relaxed in manchester when i saw them at 18- which considering that Pat and possible Casey have already done marathons this fall is good, but I think Pat dropped out- perhaps by plan- and casey looked a little rough coming in.
    nate
    nate

18. Glorybelle Nov 3

    Hey Nate, I’m so glad the little nagging problems are going away. Watching NYCM was amazing… and to watch Meb come out of “hiding” and take it all was the best thing ever. So many had written him off, and he persevered and never gave up that dream and now look at him! Just so promising… and it shows that just because somebody has a down year due to injuries and what not, doesn’t mean they won’t make a grand comeback. I hope you see what I’m getting at, Nate.

19. Nate Nov 3

    Glorybelle- It was great to watch, wasn’t it. Though I don’t think Meb’s been in ‘hiding’ this year. after starting his comeback late last year this whole year has been a grand return for him, it just hasn’t been noticed. He started with a win in the Houston Half in a then PR and beating 2nd place Ritz, followed that up with a USATF xc championship, then he ran a then PR 2:09:21 (again in front of Ritz) at London. Then he ran another half PR this fall before getting the big win Sunday. He ran 2 half PR’s and 2 marathon PR’s and didn’t lose to a single american on the roads this year despite the years that Ritz and Hall had. That is the best part Hall ran 3rd at Boston, 4th at NYC, he was the first american to win the Philly distance run half in 20 plus years, Ritz ran 2:10:00, ran 1:00:00, ran 6th at the worlds in the 10k, ran 27:22 and 12:56, got a bronze at the world half championships and neither of them had the best year by an american!! I’m just so pumped. I talked after the last marathon trials how I felt it closely mirrored the 1980′ trials in that there was a massive step forward from the years before but that the real show down was four years later in ‘84 when you had almost 30 sub 2:13 qualifiers and more then 30 sub 2:13 runners in the field. I think this year is starting to show that that is the case. At the next trials you’ll have at least 4 sub 2:10 guys, you’ll have at least 4 guys with top 5’s in marathon majors. You won’t hear much talk about 2:12 guys like hartmann, Lehmkuhle, Cabada. You’ll have just a bunch of guys who have run top 10 at the major’s. You will have a solid field full of favorites and then just a wall of guys who can beat them if they have the day. It will be awesome and i really want to play the part of Pete Pfitzinger or John Tuttle.
    nate

20. Kade Nov 3

    Nate,

    How do you deal with the short days in the winters/coldness. I’m originally from AZ but in NH now and trying and doubles come December/January when it gets dark so early/real cold in morning/night gets tough?

21. Nate Nov 3

    Kade- I think more then the cold of northern climes the shorter days are what really make running tough in the winter months. Getting used to running in the dark is step one. It sucks! I can’t lie to you about this but you can get passed it. One real key is to remember that December 21 is the shortest day of the year. After that every day gets a little longer. Thanks to the changing of the clocks morning runs just got a little better and will stay the better option for the rest of the winter. I plan hard efforts in the morning and tend to slog through easier sessions in the evening. The key to the cold is cloths. I hate to tell you to spend money, largely because I’m one of the cheapest people on the planet, but go out and buy some quality winter running apparel. The stuff out there now is really top notch. Buy a few base layers and a good outer layer- the outer ones are more expensive and need to be washed less- and you are good to go! I actually find myself really enjoying some of my runs on the coldest winter days. Now runs in cold rain I can live without. But keep your head up, remember from the end of december on it only gets better and before you know it you will feel at home heading out the door into your New Hampshire winter for your runs!
    nate

22. joetherando Nov 3

    i love the positive vibe of your blog nate. it gets me fired up.
    by the way, have you been training 100% solo? is there anyone around your new home in andover besides melissa to train with? (not saying shes not an ideal running partner) got any good CD’s to reccomend to me at the moment? Im in a music dry spell. you should watch NCAA northeast @franklin on nov. 14th.
    -joe the rando

23. Canova follower Nov 3

    I’m like 60% positive I know who joetherando is. But on another note, Nate why do you think it is that the great marathoners in the 80s would still be very competitive on the hilly courses nowadays - Boston and New York for example - but would be a good bit slower on the fast courses?

24. John Nov 3

    Nate - great week! it looks like you’re starting to “get back on the horse”. Keep this stuff up for awhile longer, tear it up on the track, and make the 1/2 your plaything.

    A few questions, if you don’t mind. First of all, hardest workout in HS? College? I’d just like your thoughts on your past, that’s all. talking about HS, i mentioned Schlapak a couple weeks ago, but i can’t find what event he qualified for the OT’s. W/ his sub 4:00 time (think i read 3:57/58 somewhere), and the lack of depth in the 90’s, he could’ve been an 1500m competitor, but his xc performance indicates 5k/10k….

    Lastly, with your recent talk about a 1/2, are you still going to put great emphasis on your indoor campaign? From last year’s results, it looks like w/ proper tapering and so forth, 8:00/13:45-50 are in your grasp..

25. Glorybelle Nov 3

    You’re right, Nate. Meb has had a GREAT ‘09, and I hope he has more success in ‘10.
    You’ve got a lot of believers, and I’m one of them. I remember that Pete Pfitzinger took the ‘84 Trials… surprising a lot of people! I was only a Freshman in high school then. LOL. Keep at it. We’re rootin’ for you all the way.

26. joetherando Nov 3

    Canova follower,

    my identity is no secret. I am Joe Rando and I run for RU. (rando university) its in Lowell mass and I am coached by MD.

    just kidding,
    you could never guess who I am, I run for a small school in the northeast. if you guess my identity right on your first try I will mail you a garmin.
    maybe.
    -Joe the rando

27. Canova follower Nov 3

    Haha. I’m sorry bro, I shouldn’t have even said anything. I’ll just chuck out the initials of who I think you are… RS. I love your posts as I do Nate’s. All the best.

28. Nate Nov 3

    Joetherando- I like the positive feeling as well. I don’t have much that is knew but I’ll suggest some older stuff and hope it is new to you. Kings of Leon’s old aha shake heartbreak cd is an all time great. Only by the night is also pretty good. Rilo Kiley’s- More adventures is a winner. Also I really liked Vampire weekends first album and Deer Tick’s War Elephant.
    Canova follower- You got to remember that there were no pacesetters or very few pace setters and that many of today’s slow courses were the fast courses in the old days. Also conditions were perfect a few years at boston and most years it is shit. If you don’t have to run into a killer wind the last half and everyone goes out at a good but not fast pace it can fly. In ‘94? they were 1:05 flat at the half Cosmos Ndeti ran 2:07:teens and Bob Kempainen was 7th? in 2:08:47. A smart start and a tail wind. It was in many ways easier to run 2:12 in 1983 then it is now because there were more races at that pace, now you have every fast course set up to run 2:06 so it is much easier to do. In 1984 if you wanted to go out in 1:03:00 you were taking it out by yourself and there was a good chance you were going to be alone and there weren’t the many fast courses with class races available. The few times that people go together on fast courses you see tatical races- rotterdam ‘83 is a prime example. When it wasn’t tactical you saw some real quick times- ie steve jones at chicago, twice. Lastly I think some of it is training a lot of these guys today are training specific for the marathon but specific to fast flat courses and they really aren’t ready to RACE on a tough hilly course. They need to rythm pace set flat fast kind or they’re in trouble.

    John- thanks, hopefully. I believe Brad went the ‘92 trials in the 1500m and ran well. He was at the ‘96 trials in the 5000m but I think he got knocked out in the heats, I believe he was injured?
    I don’t have a set race plan at the moment. I’m not sure how slowly or quickly I’m going to progress in terms of the hammy and I don’t know what races I can get added to etc.. I want to run Boston in the spring but I won’t do it without running a half first. So Houston or 3M would be the two fastest big ones between now and then, they are in the middle of the indoor season. If I do one of those I’ll do a good bit of indoor before but no backing off, but if I do houston I’ll rest the week after and hit the terrier 5k pretty fresh the following weekend. Another possibility is to run a full indoor season and then hit like new bedford or some other local half later in the winter/spring. We’ll see. I think in my case to run a very fast marathon it is going to be necessary for me to run a large amount of speed at the start of the cycle, because I’m not very good at those distances, but that it isn’t necessarily all that important that I actually race that well. Ie last winter was great, I ran a ton of speed work, I raced well-4:13,8:08, 14:04- but all very tired-130 plus miles each of those weeks and none of it really everything I was capable of doing. If I had been healthy I think that would have been a great lead in to a build up to boston.

    Glorybelle-thanks!
    nate

29. Nate Nov 3

    oh sorry I missed this- joetherando- yup all alone. I haven’t really been searching for anyone to run with. I would like it but they’d have to be willing to do what I want to do and that is unlikely. Its not that I don’t like running with people its just that I know what I need to do to get better and that is what I’m going to do. If you live in the area and are free around 9am and 6pm then you can come on out for the runs. heck I’ll even tell you how to adjust them for your current fitness. But I’m a stickler for details and so I basically end up doing the runs alone.
    nate

30. Bob Nov 4

    Nate, be careful becasue you might have a bunch of guys start showing up for your evening easy runs. I’d love to come down and go for a run sometime. Story Time with Nate, on the fly.

    In addition to proper clothes and a positive attitude that you mentioned as keys to winter running in the Northeast, I sometimes find that the hardest part is getting my feet from my bed to the floor when I know it is -10, or snowing, or both. I do most of my running in the morning and with a marathon on the schedule, that often means a 4:30am wake up call. The most helpful thing I’ve found is a simple reminder I give myself on those mornings, “This is going to suck, but one of the guys that I want to beat next year is going wimp out today, and I’m going to close the gap on him a little bit today.” For some reason, that does the trick for me every time.
    Keep on truckin’!

31. RS Nov 4

    Canova follower,

    joethe rando is definitely not me. I have not secrets to hide here.

    -the real RS

32. Chris Nov 4

    @ Joe the Rando - You said you won your conference. Was that individual or your team?

33. Inspector Nov 4

    “i won my conference”. The I would make that an individual achievement.

34. pscrq79 Nov 4

    Hey Nate,

    I know you touched on your Saucony contract before but was wondering, if your a sponsored athlete are you allowed to run for a track club as well like the BAA or GlRR or does Saucony put restrictions on this? Also, how did Melissa’s brother do at the Manch Marathon?

35. joetherando Nov 4

    intentionally ambiguous

36. John Nov 4

    Nate - thanks! Just wondering, hardest workout in HS? college? Also, i was wondering about racing twice in a short period of time. You see, i’m looking at hitting the indoor circuit this december/jan, but i was really looking into a couple short road races (5k’s etc) as well. BU has a development meet the 26th, and then the millenium mile is the 27th. Obviously not any time for recovery. I’m shooting to run around 5:30 @ BU, do you think the millenium mile would be a wash the next day if i tried it?

37. joiwef Nov 4

    Hey Nate, if I were to supplement my base phase by biking, and then gradually change the bike rides over to double runs, what heart rate would you recommend biking at? Should I just bike at the heart rate a normal run would be? Or higher because it is less pounding?

38. Nate Nov 4

    Bob- come on down. But really that is great advice. the hardest part of getting training done is always the first step. Once you start it is done. Its starting that is hard.

    pscrq79- It depends on exactly what your deal is but for the most part you can’t run for anyone but your shoe company. My deal was a bit different at first in that I could still run for my local club but just had to run in my saucony kit, but that changed. A lot of european guys still run for a club but have a shoe deal but it is a different set up over there.
    Chris ran 2:43, he was hoping for more but it was a bit of tough course and I think the bear jumped on his back pretty good the last few miles.

    John- In HS we did a lot of killer workouts- it was kinda silly because we couldn’t absorb them- but we were killing ourselves out there. I’m trying to remember a ‘hardest’ session but no single one really sticks out. We basically worked out every day doing ‘relays’ two or three person teams running all out around various short loops on trails. I think we did a few hill repeat sessions I found very tough. In college I think the hardest session I ever did was a 6×800 at 2:25 my soph? year with Jon Murphy it was a real windy day and we were scheduled for 2:25’s and we decided we would hit them not matter what and we did, my ears were ringing for hours after. I didn’t do many impressive sessions in HS or college, I did 8×400 in 59 once in HS (which was right about my PR 58.2) but had a 400 walk recovery so it wasn’t as good as it sounds. I did a decent cut down mile workout in college of 5:00, 4:50, 4:40, 4:30, but couldn’t drop the 4:20 some that was supposed to come next. Whats really sad is that we took some pretty long breaks and I still didn’t run very fast sessions. Frankly I just wasn’t that good.
    Millenium is so downhill you’ll PR even if you decide to go out drinking after your bu race the day before.
    nate

39. joetherando Nov 4

    why’d you jump on chris’ back the last few miles of his marathon? just kidding.
    so are you going to watch NCAA northeast at franklin nate? how far are you from there?

40. Nate Nov 4

    joetherando- I’m planning on trying to get down in time for the D2 regional this weekend I doubt I’ll head in for the d1 next week. I’m about 50mins? from franklin park.
    nate

41. joetherando Nov 4

    ps thanks for the music advice. im jumping right on it!

42. joetherando Nov 4

    okay, well if you happen to have nothing to do that saturday you should go watch the D1 regionals. I could use your spiritual support.

    8×400 in 59 is absolutely ruthless for HS. I cant believe you did that!

    Ok I used up my post quota for the week so I’ll stop for now. I look forward to sunday night/monday morning! enjoy your enhanced sleep courtesy of daylight savings time this week! Frank Shorter couldn’t run well on anything less than 9 hours a night!

43. matt Nov 4

    Since we were talking about the millennium mile, I thought I would bring this to your attention. I was browsing through the pictures from 2005 on the NYRR site and saw a runner up there with the leaders in the beginning who I couldn’t identify but am pretty sure he has some nasty prs. His bib # is 311, I know he runs some big mileage, and is great at responding to the gun if that helps.
    http://www.mensracing.com/photos/2005/millenniummile05/millennium13.jpg

    Hope training continues to progress.

44. T D 1 Nov 5

    Nate, I’m not sure if you do any upperbody work beyond core, but if one were to, would you suggest high or low reps?

45. Bob Nov 5

    Ha…It looks like 311 has a slight lead over 185 at this stage of the race. I wonder if he held him off over the next 5275 feet?

46. Nate Nov 5

    joetherando- it really isn’t I mean a 400 walk break, it served absolutly NO purpuse what so ever. It was a monumental waste of energy. Workouts are made by the REST!! the sooner people see this the sooner everyone will start running better. My #1 frustration as a runner is that when I trained like everyone else, being the hardest worker on my teams by the way, I was the 5th man on my HS team and I was the 4th or 5th or sometimes 6th man on my college teams. These weren’t national power house teams they were little schools in small divisions. Every one thinks we lose to the africans becuase they are born at altitude or they are genetically predeposed to running 2:06. Its a whole lot of bull shit. We lose to the africans because a hard run when they are young is running hard for 6K to school, better yet they start slow and finish fast because they are tired. We lose to the africans becuase they do almost no interval workouts until they have years of 100 mile weeks with a ton of tempo and threshold under there belts, and oh by the way do you know what you do in gym class in a 3rd world country when you don’t have any equipment to work with? You do a mile or two run and then some ballistic drills! Then when they build this enourmous engine and great balanced neuro muscular system they start doing workouts and racing all over the place. But they still stick to these great tenets of training, not killing intervals, doing a ton of LONG hard stuff, going easy when there body says they have to. Meanwhile we abuse our youth and HS runners (and in a lot of colleges as well) doing stupid intervals that only teach bad form and create muscle imbalances causing injury, preventing real development. Selling real improvement because the kids improve faster in the first 2 months of the year on that then they would on mileage and tempo’s. This is the Thing that keeps me up at night and drives me nuts. This is why I post this blog.
    anyway sorry to go running off on the tangent but really
    1. Do tempo
    2. Do progression
    3. Do ballistics and drills
    4. Don’t over race
    5. Save intervals for one short season a year until your older
    6. Race less - and until your 13 or 14 don’t race longer then 200m and shorter then a mile! Lydiard begged us not to and he was right, but still every middle school race is in this range.
    7. Do hills
    8. When your doing intervals they should be SPECIFIC to a race, and the REST is what seperates them from the race and as such is the most important part of the rest.
    9. Coaches you always use short all out intervals to ‘build speed’ They DON’T build speed!! Drills build speed, ballistics build speed! Hills build speed! strides build speed!
    10. If you don’t buy what I’m selling fine, buy Joe Vigil book- he’ll let you do more intervals then I would- follow it for one year. Really try it out. You’ll have the best year of your coaching career.

    Matt- very nice

    TD!-I don’t do any upperbody beyond core. Don’t believe in it for under 40 runners. I have never scene an Olympic champ in a distance event who was scary skinny. So I would suggest not doing it. If you want to put on muscle for looks then I guess check with someone who knows something about lifting. It ain’t me. If your arms are getting tired when you run loosen your hands and relax.

    Ok I think I’m in a mood or something, my responses look rude, I don’t mean them to be so if I offended sorry!!
    nate

47. Nate Nov 5

    Joiwef- sorry missed this one somehow. Well the first thing to remember is that biking is very non specific to running so your not going to get in much better running shape by biking. It can improve your overall fitness a bit but as far as helping your running performance it is a very very indirect way of doing so.
    Now to the nitty gritty. the heart rate can be higher, more like tempo/threshold because there is no pounding and the recovery is easier, this is why cyclists can train 6 hours a day and swimmers can go hard in pretty much every session and us runners can’t. But the real trick isn’t HR it is turn over. You run at 180 strides per minute so to at least get something moving towards running you should do 90revolutions per minute on the bike. This will at least have you getting used to the right stride rythm. Oh and this will feel like your legs are spinning out of control by the way but you’ll get used to it.
    nate

48. natty Nov 5

    Good post i like it!talking about aerobic development, i came from a swimming background and from 8-14 swam 2-4 hours a day 360 days of the year, we did exactly what your talking about,loads of drills, main sets that took 30 minutes and were just at a solid strong effort/pace, nothing killer. and daily short sprints at the end of sessions like 16*25m, 12-15seconds from a dive. i always thought it strange when i heard my brother who was a middle distance guy at the time, races 2-20 minutes, 14/15 years old go to the track bust out 10*400’s at 800m pace twice a week and do four 30-40 minutes runs a week.i though how much easier run training is!!needless to say he ran 1.58 doin this got to 16 years old, stopped improving and thought he was crap, quit, put on 3 stone and never ran again. when i retired from swimming at 14 i thought id start jogging to keep fit, i thought training for 1 hour a day was a doddle, pretty soon i was doing 60 miles a week and considered myself just a fitness runner,i liked the six pack, my brother thought i was an idiot, id hear thing like your knees will get wrecked, that i run too much and will “burn out.” blah blah blah. dont know where this story is goin but you get the picture. i still run by the way.2 hours a day.not burnt out yet.

49. MD Nov 5

    Woa Nate!
    Yes, Nate was totally in a horrible mood this morning and has been taking it out on others all day, although he does seem to be doing better now. You can tell when he’s in a bad mood because his already bad grammar gets even worse! i.e. “I have never scene an Olympic champ in a distance event who was scary skinny.” He meant to say that he’s never seen an Olympic Champ who wasn’t skinny (double negatives, I know. Bottom line= Olympic champs are skinny). He was probably also thinking of adding the quote by Lydiard about athletes (Viren, Vassala)looking like plucked chickens but was too frustrated to scroll through his list of quotes to find it!
    What a morning.

    -MD

50. Bob Nov 5

    And here I assumed he was still working on the Bela Karolyi accent and grammar! (We have mutual friends on Facebook!)

51. Canova follower Nov 5

    Wow Melissa, after reading your translation everything makes way more sense! haha. Thank you.

52. Matt F Nov 6

    @MD Or the one from Wetmore saying you should look like a skeleton with a condom pulled over your skull.

53. MD Nov 6

    Bob- yes, Nate made a great Bela Karolyi for Halloween. He was picking me up all night and saying things like “This is my little Kerri, she broke her ankle but she win the gold!”

    Canova follower- glad I could help you decipher Nate’s post. haha

    MattF- absolutely- that is definitely the famous quote regarding skinny distance runners. I think Nate prefers the Lydiard quote though, whenever I beat him in push-up contests that’s the quote he uses!

    Have a great day everyone.
    -MD

54. joetherando Nov 6

    I can see the skeleton part, but why do you need a condom on your head?

55. Nate Nov 6

    joetherando- your skin is supposed to look thin and too tight, so its like a condom pulled down over your head.

56. Mister T Nov 6

    wow! this blog is great this week!

57. Nate Nov 6

    Mister T- Glad you enjoyed it!
    nate

58. Out of the Loop Nov 6

    Sorry Melissa or Nate. What is the Lydiard quote Nate uses?

59. MD Nov 6

    Out of the Loop: I think there may be a couple similar quotes, but here’s one directly from a lecture by Lydiard: “Lasse Viren, who I worked with in Finland, when he took his shirt off, he looked like a plucked chicken. There is no muscle there at all, just ribs sticking out. He won four Olympic gold medals.”

    Here’s a link to that lecture, for your reading pleasure:
    http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/pdfs/al_lecture.pdf

    -MD

60. Joe Nov 6

    Nate - I was thinking of starting a canova cycle - i really agree with what he is advocating & i think it’s the right type of training for me. I come from a background of consistent 50-60 mile weeks, but want to slowly up the mileage to a much better area (say, 80-85). I was thinking of doing this: http://runcrain.blogspot.com/2008/10/renato-canova-files.html (Canova Strength program, it’s one of the first links). What do you think? Also, does he have guidelines for a base phase? i’m eager to learn more about him, but his information is not as widespread over the internet as say, Lydiard, haha

61. Nate Nov 7

    Joe- that is a great base for middle distance running- 800m to 10k but you should be warned that depending on what pace you are running you will be at about 100 to 120 a week at the start and by the end of the 6 weeks at 130 plus miles for the week. So I think you’ll have to make some adjustments. I’m all for it just you’ll have to drop some of the easy run volumes, or drop them entirely- most of the other stuff is training for a specific area of fitness. Another option would be to spread the cycle over 10 days or two weeks. So you get everything done in each cycle just spread out so that your volume can stay in the sub 100 mile week range.
    what you are looking at in that program is the base phase- prior to this if you are not fit you should do 2 to 6 weeks of mileage, some short hill sprints and some progression runs. It combines the lydiard base and hill phases into one cycle and incorporates a lot of threshold/tempo work- more from the Ron Clarke school. After 6 weeks of this base you take a light week and time trial. Then you would go into specific training, then do 3 week lighter racing sections mixed with 3 weeks of heavier specific training, then back to lighter racing sections. You could do 2 or 3 cycles like this before it is time for rest and base.
    nate

62. Rich Nov 7

    John,

    Brad Schlapak had immense talent. He was also a very focused runner. Brad had incredible speed for a middle distance runner (47 second 400m, 1:49 800m and a 3:58 mile). Two races in which I saw him race, which were probably the most exciting races I’ve seen personally, were the mile on the indoor track at Hardvard University and the National Cross-Country Championships at Franklin Park.

    The first was on the 220 yard (one of the only indoor tracks still measured in yards rather than meters) banked track at Harvard. The “Great” Steve Scott (all-time record holder for the most sub 4 minute miles) was entered in the race along with 11 other top notch milers. Watching runners go under 4 minutes indoors is exciting because it’s difficult to do. Eaamon Coughlin of Ireland was probably the best indoor miler ever and the only runner to go under 4 minutes as a master and he did it in 1993 at Harvard ( a race where Brad was the rabbit for 1000m). Anyway, getting back to the race, the gun sounded and the twelve runners took off. There were some early rabbits taking the charge and leading the pack through the first quarter in 59 (Steve Scott was in 4th at the time biding his time and Brad was in last) about a second back. By the half, the field started to string out and Scott was now in 3rd and Brad had moved up to 8th position. For a young runner Brad showed a lot maturity and patience in big races never allowing other runners to steer him away from his goal pace. With three laps to go Scott moved into the lead and Brad who was in 8th a lap before shot by the string of runners and ran off Steve Scott’s shoulder in 2nd place. As they hit the 3/4 mark in 2:59, Steve held the lead by a stride on Brad. And then on the backstretch the “unthinkable” happened, Brad shot by Steve Scott and seized the lead. Pandemonium broke out as every spectator was on his/her feet clapping and cheering. Scott not realizing what had just happened and not knowing who this young kid was came off the fourth turn and shot by Brad with a little more than a lap to go. The bell lap sounded and they both raced down the backstretch and Brad went by Scott for the 2nd time. You could tell by this time that the veteran Scott was a little concerned and also a bit perturbed. He wasn’t going to have some young kid steal the show, so with 40 yards to go coming off the final turn Scott shot by Brad for the final time to win in 3:57.6, Brad wound up running a tick over 3:58. It was a great race.

    The 2nd race came a few years later at Franklin Park at the Nationals. Brad had finished 22nd a year earlier but this year he decided not to race the entire summer and fall and focus on one race (Nationals). He trained under Art Conro (one of the best high school cross-country coaches I knew). Brad did exactly what coach Conro asked of him. He was doing 400’s in 58-59 seconds with 100m rests in between (insane), ridicuolus fartlek routines as well as telephone poles and pyramids. He also ran the muliple loop 10K course at Franklin Park every weekend for nearly two months (studying every turn, hill and flat). By race day, Brad and coach knew exactly how he would run the race and when he would make his move. The thing though, he wasn’t going to be doing a training run, he was going to race some of the best cross-country runners in the nation, including eight-time winner Pat Porter, Todd Williams, Bob Kempenen, Bob Kennedy, and defending champion Ruben Reina to name a few.

    The gun sounded and the nearly 400 runners took off sprinting across the field. The first four hundred yards is very important in cross-country. You need to get your position before entering the narrower woods. It’s a calculated risk because you’re running much faster than your intended pace but if you don’t take that risk, you’ll wind up navigating through runners throughout the next six miles using a lot more energy than you intend to. I can remember the year I ran 30:06, I hit my first mile in 4:31 making the fifth and sixth miles tough, especially with Bear Cage. Anyway, much like the track event, Brad ignored the talented runners and let them go (he stayed within striking distance) but didn’t push any harder than his intended pace. After the first 1k loop, Brad was in about 40th about 5 seconds back. I’m not kidding, this is what cross-country is like at the Nationals. At the end of the 2nd loop (3k), he had moved up to about 20th about 8 seconds back. By 5k, he was in around 15th still about 8 seconds back. By this time he was already passing runners like Porter and Williams. Going into the final loop and into the wilderness, Brad was in 11th place about 7 seconds back and positioned to strike at any moment. At this point the lead runners began to accelerate and string out a bit. Coming out of the wilderness they only needed to go across the inside of the field, and up and over bear cage (if my memory serves me well) and down bear cage, around the back stop to the finish. As they came down the hill with about 600 yards to go it was Ruben Reina in first and Brad now in second about three seconds back. Once again people were screaming (this time because Brad was a little more well known). As they came around the backstop with about 100 or so yards to go, Brad was a step or two behind Ruben and bearing down hard. With 50 yards remaining they were even and giving it everything they had and even though Ruben Reina had outstanding speed, the 400’s combined with the workouts on the course and the support from the fans gave Brad that little bit extra to outlean Ruben for the victory and the National Chmapionship in a course record time.

    Awesome!

    Rich

63. Bruce Nov 8

    Nate, I particularly like your comment that began “joetherando- it really isn’t I mean a 400 walk break, it served absolutly NO purpuse what so ever.”

    If HS coaches (or the distance runners themselves) took your advice to heart, the US would be a force on the world scene.

    Good to see you training well again. Keep it up!

64. Rich Nov 8

    Nate,

    If you decide to run Slattery’s you should run a very fast time. Slattery’s is a very, fast course and a bit short (about 25 seconds short of 5 miles at 5:00 pace). Dunham and Morse have run 23:28 and 23:29 there. I did a time trial five years ago as a master on that course. I was in about 25 minute shape and ran 24:23. Doiron was in lousy shape one year and ran 25:30 at Franklin Park at Mayor’s and then a several weeks later ran 24:30 at Slattery’s. I wish I ran the course in my prime. Anyway, based upon your 24:48 at Mayor’s, you should run 23:48 or better. If you really nail it, you could go under 23:30. It’s a fun race, usually draws around 600 and has a fairly good cash prize for a local race. And then, of course after the race, the runners chug down some frosties at Slattery’s while watching football and getting their awards.

    I don’t like to say good luck because running has nothing to do with luck so instead, “Train Smart, Run Well.”

    Rich

65. Nate Nov 8

    Rich- Thanks for the brad stories!! He was huge for us at Narragansett because having him out there winning Nationals and competing at that level, even though we didn’t really know him, made us feel like we were part of a lineage and supposed to win and supposed to get great.
    Also I agree about slattery’s very fast and usually at least a couple of 3rd tier africans come up from NYC, so it should be a race. I’m feeling very fit, I never know off of threshold how I’ll race though. I’d like to go 23:30’s or better but we’ll see how it goes.
    Bruce- thanks, glad you like it and agree, now we both need to start coaching a HS and we’ll be two schools better off.
    nate

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